Christine Hirabayashi on The Creative Process and Acceptance of Pain

Christine Hirabayashi
Christine Hirabayashi presenting at RSDSA Conference on CYPS

Christine Hirabayashi is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Board-Certified Art Therapist. She received her Bachelor of Fine Arts degree in Illustration, and subsequently her Master’s Degree in Marriage and Family Therapy and Art Therapy from Notre Dame de Namur University. Since 2004, Christine has been at the Bay Area Pain and Wellness Center. With her passion for helping others express emotion through art, Christine offers individual and group art therapy, support groups, workshops, and facilitates an offsite open art studio designed to foster a supportive community and ongoing creative outlet for those who have chronic pain. Christine’s current doctoral research focuses on investigating how art therapy increases acceptance in adults that have been diagnosed with chronic pain. Her vision is to continue finding innovative ways to strengthen and heal the mind and body through the use of art therapy.

This presentation is part of the broader discussion on integrated Solutions to CRPS, treating the whole person, and optimizing wellness.

Transcript

00:11
introduce Christine Hirabayashi
00:15
I practiced and she's a marriage and
00:19
Family Therapist and I just want to read
00:22
a little bit about her passion with her
00:25
passion for helping others she expresses
00:27
emotion through art she offers
00:29
individual in group art therapy support
00:32
groups workshops and facilitates an
00:34
off-site open art studio designed to
00:36
foster a supportive community and
00:38
ongoing creative outlet for those who
00:41
have chronic pain Thank You Christine hi
00:46
I'm Christine Hirabayashi I am a
00:48
marriage and family therapist and art
00:50
therapist at the Barrie apena Wellness
00:51
Center and today what I wanted to do is
00:54
to introduce to you a little bit today
00:56
about art therapy and share a little bit
00:59
about how art in a creative process can
01:02
heal you in ways that you're not aware
01:04
of so as an overview today's
01:07
presentation is going to discuss pain
01:10
and the emotional impact it has when it
01:12
becomes chronic discuss actually what
01:15
art therapy is and how it is integrated
01:18
at Bay Area pain and Wellness Center I'm
01:20
also going to touch on acceptance and
01:22
chronic pain and share examples of art
01:25
therapy directives in our functional
01:27
restoration program that we use that
01:29
includes masks sculptures of pain and
01:32
also going to share art created by
01:34
patients that are diagnosed by CRPS so
01:38
first I wanted to give a quick
01:39
definition of pain many people can
01:42
define it pain in different ways
01:43
depending on how they conceptualize it
01:46
many people will describe it as a
01:48
physical sensation or an emotional
01:50
response to a particular situation and
01:53
in a medical setting pain is referred to
01:56
as both a physiological and
01:58
psychological experience and the initial
02:01
and the International Association of
02:03
study of pain has defined it as an
02:06
unpleasant sensory and emotional
02:08
experience associated with actual or
02:11
potential tissue damage so this
02:13
definition actually acknowledges the
02:16
psychological and also the biomechanical
02:18
components of experiencing pain Michael
02:21
went over a lot of the physiological
02:23
components today I'm going to talk more
02:25
about the emotional piece so as you all
02:28
already know chronic pain has a
02:30
significant and detrimental impact on an
02:33
individual's psychological and also
02:35
their social well-being the experience
02:37
of chronic pain can deprive one of their
02:40
identity their occupation their healthy
02:43
relationships mental health and general
02:46
quality of life and many people are
02:49
unprepared for not just the
02:50
physiological aspects but the
02:52
psychological last bits that pain has
02:54
brought into their lives
02:56
depending on the severity there is also
02:58
financial stress due to inability to
03:01
work which has led to loss and loss of
03:05
self-identity and from any purpose most
03:08
have isolated themselves due to pain and
03:10
it also impacts communication and
03:14
relationships and in their life mental
03:18
deconditioning has priests the ability
03:20
to be mindful to the experience of
03:22
positive emotions common emotional
03:25
reactions to living with chronic pain
03:27
include depression anger irritability
03:29
anxiety and decreased memory so at bay
03:34
area pain and Wellness Center the
03:36
interdisciplinary approach to treat
03:38
chronic pain has been proven effective
03:41
when using a combination of modalities
03:44
to integrate treatment for the both the
03:46
mind and also the body this
03:49
interdisciplinary treatment approach
03:51
includes often physical therapy
03:54
psychology other complementary treatment
03:57
and also introduces relaxation and
03:59
meditation mindfulness and guided
04:02
meditation and also of course art
04:05
therapy as part of functional
04:07
restoration so what is art therapy so
04:10
art therapy is a complementary treatment
04:13
and that integrates psychotherapy and
04:15
art making it is considered a mental
04:18
health profession where clients
04:20
facilitated by an art therapist use art
04:22
media and the creative process to
04:24
explore and also to talk about their
04:26
feelings art therapy is an expression
04:29
that can be used to better understand
04:31
pain as lived by the individual that
04:34
experiences it it provides an avenue for
04:37
knowledge to emerge and creates a
04:39
therapeutic space where a person can
04:42
externalize their internal world through
04:44
their creative process creative
04:46
expression aids in the release of often
04:48
unconscious repressed emotions and
04:51
conflicts that most times often feel too
04:54
threatening to discuss art therapy aims
04:57
at exploring meaning that emerges
04:59
through the metaphor of the artwork
05:01
opening up the opportunity for insight
05:04
and understanding about pain to be
05:06
discovered active participation and
05:10
process helps to work through dilemmas
05:12
that have surfaced in the art due to the
05:14
experience of pain and it often empowers
05:17
the individuals to apply their newly
05:20
acquired meaning and skills to other
05:22
areas in their life art therapy is at
05:25
the burial pain and wellness center is a
05:27
6-week outpatient functional restoration
05:29
program and art therapy is integrated as
05:32
part of the treatment for one hour day
05:35
in a small group setting of six
05:37
participants or less and while in art
05:41
therapy participants are asked to create
05:43
imagery and to talk about their
05:45
experience of pain through this process
05:48
they learn to express themselves in a
05:50
creative way that deepens reflection and
05:53
self understanding the art therapy
05:56
intervention given are designed to
05:58
complement the psycho-educational
06:00
material that's covered over the course
06:02
in the FRP these directives are based on
06:05
concepts of the six core pots concepts
06:09
of act which is acceptance commitment
06:12
therapy so through research it has been
06:16
developed that our acceptance and pain
06:19
has led to better management of pain and
06:21
acceptance of chronic pain is defined as
06:24
living with pain without reacting to
06:27
judging or accepting to reduce or to
06:29
avoid it it is not resignation to or
06:32
ignoring pain but rather an active
06:35
willingness to engage in meaningful
06:37
activities in the presence of pain
06:40
studies have also demonstrated that gray
06:43
acceptance of pain associated with
06:45
associates with less pain intensity
06:47
depression pain related anxiety lower
06:51
levels of physical and psychosocial
06:53
disability greater daily activity and
06:57
overall better well-being so acceptance
07:00
and commitment therapy is a
07:01
psychological intervention that has been
07:03
used as a tool to help people with
07:05
various elements including chronic pain
07:07
Act uses acceptance and also mindfulness
07:12
strategies mixed with different ways to
07:14
encourage people to honestly evaluate
07:16
how their condition affects their
07:19
thought process they're also asked to do
07:21
the same for what they value also in
07:24
their lives which helps them to react to
07:26
pain in a different and more
07:28
constructive way ultimate leading to
07:31
increased psychological flexibility and
07:33
acceptance of pain art therapy
07:36
interventions in the FRP have been
07:38
designed around six core processes of
07:40
act and they are acceptance cognitive
07:43
diffusion being present self is context
07:48
values and committed action so
07:52
acceptance of chronic pain is
07:55
willingness to embrace the experience of
07:57
pain without making an attempt to change
07:59
it art therapy interventions are
08:02
designed to confront avoidance of pain
08:04
and examine areas in which efforts are
08:07
used to control their feelings around it
08:10
interventions are intended to engage the
08:13
client in a visual dialogue that
08:15
supports with letting go of their
08:17
struggles with pain cognitive diffusion
08:19
attempts to change the way one interacts
08:22
with unhelpful thoughts about pain and
08:25
creating context in which they can grow
08:27
this greater flexibility in thinking and
08:30
these art interventions help to loosen
08:32
the relationship between thoughts and
08:34
words and this creates a space where
08:36
negative thoughts and also experiences
08:39
can be observed more objectively and
08:42
this distance allows for a more mindful
08:45
perspective around thoughts of chronic
08:48
pain being present promotes a
08:50
non-judgmental contact with
08:52
psychological and of iron
08:54
it's environmental events as they occur
08:56
and art and art interventions are
08:59
designed to be present it encourages one
09:03
to notice more fully the meaning of life
09:05
experiences without the distraction of
09:07
pain and being present encourages
09:11
insight and understanding for change it
09:13
can be expressed through the image and
09:15
discussed to help promote acceptance as
09:18
well selfish context builds awareness of
09:21
the use of the observing self and lets
09:24
go of attachments to more of the
09:26
conceptualized self art interventions
09:29
focus on letting go of self unhelpful
09:32
self evaluations through the use of the
09:34
metaphor and the goal is to concur event
09:39
of a solid sense of self these images
09:41
often break personal boundaries they
09:43
loosen outworn ideas and help to make
09:47
way for new concepts of self to develop
09:50
Values Clarification ask the patient to
09:54
step back from everyday problems and
09:56
look at what gives their life meaning
09:58
art therapy interventions are intended
10:01
to investigate the variety of life
10:03
directions that are most important to
10:05
family to them oftentimes family career
10:09
spirituality and other related topics
10:11
are often talked about and explored art
10:15
created from this perspective assist in
10:17
developing a clear path to more
10:19
accepting in values consistent life
10:23
committed action is a deliberate pattern
10:26
of action that is consistent with those
10:28
personal values and our therapy
10:31
interventions focus on ways that
10:32
individuals have been able to involve
10:35
themselves in activities that encourage
10:37
personal goals that are consistent with
10:40
their values that develop and they're
10:43
meant to increase acceptance of chronic
10:47
pain so because chronic pain is a hidden
10:52
disability it's something that can
10:54
easily be masked many do not want to
10:57
burden their friends and their family
10:59
about their pain or
11:00
feelings that they're they're having and
11:03
so oftentimes what we find is obviously
11:06
you put your best face forward you put
11:08
on your makeup you smile through your
11:11
pain and outwardly don't show your
11:14
discomfort so this project the mass
11:18
project I asked participants to consider
11:21
the masks and the masks that you wear
11:24
for other people in your life and on the
11:27
outside I have people paint or draw how
11:30
other people see you the mask you wear
11:33
for others and on the inside is how do
11:35
you see yourself so I'm going to show a
11:39
few examples this lady was a teacher she
11:43
came to us in this summer and she said
11:45
the way she outwardly shows her pain is
11:49
she tries to there's not really a smile
11:53
there's not really a frown her eyes
11:56
maybe you can just tell look a little
11:58
tired and irritable but on the inside it
12:02
tells the different stories she feels
12:03
like she's constantly having to stare
12:06
through this band of darkness which she
12:07
describes as her depression with the
12:10
tears on the inside and not on the
12:12
outside with the with the temporary
12:14
band-aids that say don't cry
12:16
don't complain push yourself don't
12:19
scream let's not talk about it just only
12:22
to survive and she was in her first week
12:25
of the functional restoration program
12:27
enter in her mind I don't know if you
12:30
could see it says pain hopeless anger
12:33
and stress but just starting to feel a
12:34
little bit more hopeful forgiveness and
12:37
relaxation so I'm sure when we're doing
12:41
the groups but people can really relate
12:43
to these two different perspectives of
12:46
how we try to hide pain in people's
12:47
lives this gentleman he was pretty
12:52
high-functioning on before he had his
12:54
chronic pain diagnosis and he said that
12:57
he is look to as a very strong
13:00
individual that's why the metal and the
13:02
rivets if you can see the eyes have
13:06
mirrors in them and so he's a person
13:08
that likes to hold himself up to other
13:11
people's expectations
13:13
if it's a good father a good employee a
13:16
good patient he would hold themselves up
13:18
to those standards if you could see the
13:21
little hole in the mouth there's a
13:23
little squeaker so you can hear it on
13:25
the inside he would squeeze it you can
13:27
hear a little squeak for the voice
13:28
because he felt like he was he was a
13:30
work injured so we felt like through the
13:32
workers comp system with his doctors
13:34
with his family he lost his voice
13:37
they weren't hearing what he had to say
13:39
and on the inside when you flip in and
13:42
it's pretty it's pretty self-explanatory
13:44
a lot of things have fallen out there
13:46
used to be a medication bottle and a big
13:49
heavy rock so you actually felt the mask
13:51
it felt so heavy everything in there
13:54
meant something the ruler for not
13:56
measuring up the money for financial
13:58
issues the the balloon because he is
14:01
usually a very eloquent person he felt
14:04
like through his injury and the side
14:06
effects of the pain medication he would
14:08
lose his words and they'd forget what
14:10
he's talking about this individual he
14:13
was actually in a week one of the
14:15
program and he was very quiet in the
14:17
group he didn't share much but when he
14:20
completed his mask he worked on it
14:21
really diligently and on on he described
14:24
on the on the left-hand side the black
14:27
side he described as a darker cynical
14:30
side of himself that chronic pain
14:32
brought forward and he used that as a
14:35
way to kind of distance themselves from
14:37
others he has a lock on the mouth he
14:39
doesn't want to talk about it
14:41
the other side is camouflage he'd rather
14:43
hide in the background and he doesn't
14:45
want anyone to talk to him about pain
14:47
let's not talk about it and the bolts
14:50
that he put on is he said that he never
14:52
takes off this mask and if you flip it
14:56
on the inside those bolts actually
14:58
become pain and he found three simple
15:00
words escape more pills and it says more
15:04
pain relief and a big question mark for
15:07
the future and he put a little bullet
15:09
shell and was able to talk about his
15:11
past thoughts of suicide that we were
15:14
able to discuss this is the same person
15:19
six weeks later in our functional
15:21
restoration program he actually said he
15:24
was able to take off his mask so he says
15:28
he's trying to look forward when I still
15:31
close he has bumps and bruises he has
15:34
band-aids on his sweating he's been
15:37
working hard and he even took the time
15:39
to open up his mind and on the inside is
15:42
supposed to be those wheels turning
15:44
about a new perspective of his chronic
15:47
pain experience the yellow on the inside
15:50
he says represents hope the words on the
15:54
inside say love wish and dream with a
16:00
hand pointing forward to the future and
16:03
there are a few tools there that he says
16:05
he learned through the program that's
16:07
helping him to move on to the future so
16:09
if you can kind of see quite a
16:12
difference over that and an art therapy
16:15
really helps to create that visual
16:17
dialogue or show that journey so as you
16:20
can see that these masks oftentimes pain
16:23
goes beyond words and these feelings are
16:25
sometimes better expressed and
16:27
understood through the use of imagery
16:28
oftentimes unresolved psychological pain
16:31
around trauma plays a large role and not
16:34
allowing a person to grieve manage or
16:36
move forward and accepting pain in their
16:38
life art therapy allows a person to pay
16:42
homage to their pain and embrace their
16:44
struggles in life that have encountered
16:46
they have encountered due to the injury
16:48
and honor their suffering these two
16:52
drawings and the quotes are also from
16:55
the same person and she describes the
16:58
metaphors and the metamorphoses of
17:00
breaking out of the mask of pain and
17:02
seeing things from the new perspective
17:05
and I'm not sure if you can read up
17:08
there I'll read it for you it says she
17:10
describes art has been a release of
17:12
anger to my loss and physical emotional
17:15
ability to process my limitations when I
17:18
look at my drawings I realize that I
17:21
cannot go back to what I was before the
17:23
pain but it reminds me that I can move
17:25
forward and be a better me another
17:28
directive that I like to induce
17:30
to introduce in the FRP is sculpting
17:32
pain out of clay so
17:34
I have them imagine if you could take
17:37
pain out of your body and sculpt it into
17:39
a tangible object what would it look
17:42
like
17:42
and after they sculpt the painted clay I
17:45
have them asked think about I statements
17:49
of what the pain would say and have them
17:52
write that down and part of the reason
17:55
why I really like this directive is that
17:56
for many people they have become pain
17:59
and it really has become their identity
18:03
and have never really conceptualized
18:06
pain outside of themselves and so this
18:09
directive allows for a dialogue and a
18:12
person can be angry at
18:13
they could be accepting or more friendly
18:16
to their pain it empowers them to find
18:19
their voice and to take action in a ways
18:21
that gives them the opportunity to
18:24
confront their pain so this person
18:28
sculpted pain as a little green monster
18:32
face and I'll read it for you his
18:34
conversation first it's the pain
18:36
speaking so it says pain I don't care
18:39
I'm gonna do whatever you want to do
18:41
regardless of what you want it
18:44
regardless of what you would like to
18:45
happen I'm going to twist you burn you
18:48
irritate you and make you feel tired to
18:50
the point of going crazy not knowing
18:52
what to do and his conversation back
18:56
says I want you to pick up and go away
18:59
because if you're not but if you're not
19:02
let's sit down and figure out how to
19:05
live a life with each other because if
19:08
you're not going anywhere and I
19:09
obviously can't go anywhere we're gonna
19:11
have to find a way to just get along and
19:13
you don't have to be so angry all the
19:15
time and I don't have to get so
19:17
frustrated so can't we all just get
19:19
along and the next one the pain says
19:22
tick tock
19:23
I am pain I crawl through your muscles
19:26
and veins like lava flowing down a
19:28
volcano I erupted and sometimes Rumble
19:32
with intense fire I awakened on command
19:35
and fill your life with pain and
19:37
destruction and the conversation back
19:41
says dear pain I don't hate you but I do
19:44
not like the way that you have come
19:46
told me I want to tell you that it's
19:48
time for me to take back myself as a
19:50
person I love myself and my family so
19:54
much that I dunno I dunno longer want to
19:57
see them suffer do you do my pain and
19:59
anxiety every day I pray for my health
20:01
and I will be healthier in the future so
20:06
this is the last example so after I have
20:09
them make I statements and have their
20:12
conversations I also invite them to
20:15
transfer transform the pain in any way
20:18
they feel like they need to so some
20:21
people keep their pain the same because
20:22
this is something they're gonna have to
20:24
accept and it's going to be in their
20:25
life or I have them draw what you feel
20:29
like the pain needs so this is an
20:32
example the pain says I burn I jab I
20:37
shoot sharp searing pain down your neck
20:39
back in legs I will always show up when
20:42
you least expect it I'm in charge I can
20:46
come and go when I want not when you
20:47
want in the conversation back simply
20:50
states you won't be in charge for long
20:53
I'm learning how to deal with you and
20:55
control you I will be the winner I will
20:59
conquer so art creates a safe outlet for
21:05
emotions and group therapy patients
21:08
share the commonality of having chronic
21:10
pain and there is often that unsaid
21:13
understanding that Bond's them together
21:15
feelings are understood and they're
21:17
validated and it allows someone to be
21:20
more vulnerable with their feelings and
21:22
provides an indirect way to talk about
21:24
their emotions to transform their
21:27
feelings give hope gain perspective and
21:30
assist when developing acceptance of
21:33
pain so following graduating from the
21:39
six-week program we offer a free
21:41
aftercare program to our graduates and
21:44
as part of that program we have the
21:47
participants are encouraged to continue
21:49
creating art in an off-site open studio
21:52
and so this environment provides
21:55
it's a social outlet a safe
21:57
non-judgmental judgmental space where
22:00
participants can discover and redefine
22:03
themselves as artists and not be
22:05
considered patients artists in the
22:09
studio often choose to dive deeper into
22:11
their creative process and they choose
22:14
to explore pain from other aspects of
22:17
their life giving more of a voice to
22:19
previous stories for some they have
22:21
never shared with others so the
22:25
following is artwork and quotes of five
22:27
artists from the open studio who have
22:30
and have the diagnosis of CRPS and I
22:34
have them recorded so they can share how
22:38
art has impacted them art is a way to
22:47
remove myself and set the pan aside for
22:50
a while it is very meditative for me
22:52
being exposed to one person's pain
22:55
expressed through their art and also
22:58
sharing my art is a way to witness each
23:00
other's experiences without saying word
23:03
it is quite powerful because we all
23:06
share different perspectives of chronic
23:08
pain my art isn't perfect release for
23:12
what is trapped inside I love being able
23:15
to create again art has its own
23:17
medicinal properties my art allows me to
23:21
express myself when I really can't to
23:24
those around me I go through life with a
23:27
mask on
23:28
that was close to me know that I have
23:31
chronic pain but what they don't know is
23:34
how I truly feel a.m. and day out
23:41
art heals me it encourages me to share
23:45
my feelings and understand them better
23:47
painting allows the place to see the
23:49
physical and emotional pain in my life
23:51
outside of myself and as a way to convey
23:54
thoughts and emotions without needing an
23:57
explanation the images speak for
23:59
themselves creating art fills me with
24:03
joy it is an outlet to express myself
24:06
and share Who I am with the world art
24:09
provides a tool to seek answers convey
24:12
thoughts and to communicate ideas and
24:15
emotions that I have not found words to
24:17
express when I create art I often
24:21
discover and answer to something
24:23
occurring at a deeper level the creative
24:25
process in making art is empowering fun
24:29
and has provided my life with purpose
24:37
having some days but art makes me feel
24:43
sick to my stomach on others this is a
24:46
joyful releasing I feel great Earth's
24:49
helped me to communicate emotion is
24:50
irrelevant in that I've got people
24:52
expressing any other way it gives me the
24:56
freedom to really desire without art
25:02
lets me see what is really going on
25:04
inside so all these artists have CRPS CD
25:12
in particular she's some of you are here
25:14
today can that can attest to this she's
25:16
the the messy person in the studio and
25:19
she actually uses her hands to to paint
25:22
she has both upper extremity CRPS so my
25:27
last artist that I'm going to talk about
25:29
is sadhana and she this artwork is done
25:33
by the same artist done over a period of
25:36
a year and the first one is entitled and
25:39
it describes her pain and she says I
25:41
used to stay home take pills and do not
25:43
want to cope with my pain art allowed me
25:46
a place to take my feelings out of my
25:48
body and this piece tells the story of
25:50
my undescribable pain for some it may be
25:53
difficult to look at but for me it was
25:55
my reality art allows me to have a good
25:58
outlet of the good and bad feelings that
25:59
I have inside me and then she later
26:02
paints this flower is emerging from the
26:04
darkness it is a representation of
26:06
blooming life and of more hope and
26:09
courage and I'm finally able to see some
26:11
light and our most recent one is
26:14
entitled new life and she says this
26:16
piece shows me that my feelings and
26:18
totally change about my pain when I
26:20
painted this peacock I felt hopeful and
26:23
free like a bird even though I still
26:25
have pain it doesn't stop me from
26:26
enjoying my life so in conclusion I
26:33
wanted to say that art is a universal
26:35
language it can express a feeling
26:37
without having to say a word like the
26:40
experience of pain some things cannot be
26:42
expressed through grammatical structures
26:45
such as found in language they require
26:47
some other symbolism if we are to
26:49
understand
26:50
what art therapy does is it creates a
26:53
nonverbal visual language that expresses
26:56
an aesthetic emotion and it provides a
26:59
present moment awareness through
27:00
symbolism that connects insight and
27:03
understanding and ultimately helps to
27:05
foster acceptance and change I wanted to
27:09
mention that all the artists in this
27:10
presentation they did release permission
27:13
for me to share their artwork and their
27:15
names included if you actually are in
27:18
our audience today and last but not
27:22
least I wanted to say that if you wanted
27:27
to see for those of you who are in the
27:28
area if you wanted to see more art
27:30
created by artists in the studio's we
27:32
have an art show coming up and it's of
27:35
25 artists here at the Baria pain and
27:38
Wellness Center and the art show really
27:42
is meant to visually illustrate the
27:44
journey of chronic pain from that
27:46
perspective and it provides a really a
27:49
nice platform where creativity can
27:52
happen and you can invite friends and
27:54
families so that's in Belmont
27:56
there's fliers for that in the beginning
27:58
of the studio but there's at the front
28:01
of the table there if you'd like
28:02
information on the opening reception
28:12
people hate this trick so the question
28:15
was how do people add the area find
28:17
people like that our board-certified art
28:20
therapist so American art therapy
28:23
association is a national organization
28:24
we are we are an organization you can go
28:29
to the website and there is an art
28:31
therapist finder so not all art
28:34
therapists are on there but it's a great
28:36
way to start if you're not in the state
28:37
if you don't live in the area it'll do a
28:41
little blurb about who-who the art
28:43
therapist is what city they live in and
28:45
you can start there and contact somebody
28:48
if you need someone more locally to you
28:50
I would just try to call up and see if
28:53
they have any other referrals in the
28:55
area that are closer to you thank you
28:58
very much
29:09
[Music]
29:15
you